'No refund for water billpayers' - Coveney says it would set ‘dangerous precedent’

Foreward Buncrana Together

They're all at it, that's politics for you.  The 'expert' Domestic Water Commission report has got the politicians in a tizzy.

Mr Coveney is scared to set a dangerous precedent and has put his foot in it by rushing  responses to the report. He is now threatening haul Brendan O'Mahony, one of the 'expert' commissioners before the an Oireachtas committee on water for a grilling.

Mr Noonan wants to get rid of all the dead cats or the one cat that has gotten out of the bag, him forcing people to pay for his extravagant pipe dream.   

Mr Barry Cowan wants to toss a coin, heads - we give money  back,  tails - jail all those bad people who did not pay for the hoax.  

Then Mr Penrose whose party was jointly responsible for the fiasco is threatening to use his legal expertise, him being a barrister and all.  That's the fighting spirit for you.

Catherine Byrne last night was said to be feeling some type of remorse but apparently not for her party browbeating elderly people into paying or for the lies and threats by her party colleagues.   

Mr Alan Farrel is worried that his party will loose votes if they do not refund the ill-gotten gains. That's empathy for you.

And after all that Mr Coveney  wants to study the Domestic Water Commission report a bit more.

Irish Independent, Dec 1, 2016

'No refund for water billpayers' - Coveney says it would set ‘dangerous precedent’

Backlash in FG as Noonan calls charges a 'dead cat'

by Kevin Doyle and Niall O'Connor

Under pressure: Housing Minister Simon Coveney. Photo:Tom Burke

 Housing Minister Simon Coveney is coming under massive pressure to refund almost one million householders who paid water charges despite warning it would set "a dangerous precedent".

Mr Coveney wants a payment plan put in place for hundreds of thousands of people who owe money to Irish Water. 

'Dead Cat': Finance Minister Michael Noonan. Photo:Tom Burke

"A lot of people who paid water charges aren't expecting refunds. What they want is fairness and equity to ensure that if they pay what they owe, others do the same," Mr Coveney told the Irish Independent.

He said he "won't stand over a situation where people who paid are made a fool of because they did the right thing".

However, a Fine Gael party meeting was last night dominated by the issue, with TDs expressing fears that they would never be forgiven if refunds were not issued.

Finance Minister Michael Noonan said the party has lost votes over water and it was time to "get this dead cat off the field".

He said that the €120m a year required to pay for water charges is "not significant" given that the State's budget is €58bn.

The split came as Fianna Fáil's Barry Cowen described Mr Coveney's reaction to the Expert Commission on Water's report as "rushed" and "a bit irrational".

His party now wants an assessment carried out to see if it would cost more to issue refunds - which would average €165 per household - or to pursue those who haven't paid.

Some 989,000 households did pay some or all of the money owed, with the utility collecting a total of €162.5m.

This means more than 500,000 people ignored all five bills received from Irish Water before charges were suspended in May.

The Irish Independent has learned that no effort has been made to encourage or force these people to settle their debts since the formation of the Government.

"Irish Water has not communicated directly with customers regarding their bills since the suspension of domestic charging," a spokesperson confirmed.

Labour Party TD Willie Penrose is set to table legislation that if passed by the Oireachtas would force Irish Water to give billpayers their money back.

Failing that, Mr Penrose, who is a barrister, is prepared to put together a legal team that would lead a class action in the courts.

"It's important that a situation is not created where compliant taxpayers are left feeling mugged," he said.

Mr Coveney said the way forward would have to be decided by the Oireachtas Committee which would study the Expert Commission report.

"If you have a charge or a tax that is national policy and the law then I think it's a very dangerous precedent to simply set that aside because it's an awkward political issue.

"People who didn't pay should be asked to pay. We need to design a system that can allow them to do that over time and that doesn't put anybody under financial pressure," he said.

But at last night's meeting junior minister Catherine Byrne was said to have become emotional as she demanded that refunds be paid.

Dublin Fingal TD Alan Farrell warned the party would lose votes if it did not issue refunds.

Meanwhile, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil are also assessing how to react to a section of the report which states that people in group water schemes and with private wells need to be compensated.

"Equity with the proposed arrangements for consumers on public supplies must be maintained for those who are not served by public water supplies," it stated.

Mr Coveney suggested that Brendan O'Mahony, who is chair of the National Federation of Group Water Schemes and was on the Expert Commission, should be invited to appear before the special Oireachtas committee on water.

"Many people in rural Ireland have always paid for water and the infrastructure they might need. Let's see what the committee come up with on that," he said. 

Source: Irish Independent 

Action on water charge defaulters still unclear

Foreword
All mainstream newspapers should really have a warning attached 'Read with Caution".  There are some things in this  Irish Examiner article that need read with sceptical eyes.  Here is some sound advise from fliuch.org

"With all due respect to Fiachra who is just reporting what happened (to an extent) this is just nonsense. Irish Water Ltd « it’s a limited company – has no recourse to pursue anyone via Revenue or Welfare. If it wants to pursue anyone for unpaid charges it will have to do it as a civil matter through debt collectors, solicitors and the courts like any normal company. It will also have to establish that a binding contract was in place.

If you receive a letter of demand for payment from Irish Water Ltd., or a debt collection agency or a solicitor or a court simply Return To Sender with the sticker template we’ve given you" – Fliuch.

Irish Examiner, Dec 1, 2016
Action on water charge defaulters still unclear

By Fiachra Ó Cionnaith

The Government has failed to clarify if people who have not paid water charges will be pursued through the courts, tax or social welfare payments systems.

Education Minister Richard Bruton, who took the place of theTaoiseach in the Dáil, was questioned on the water commission report.

Education Minister Richard Bruton repeatedly side-stepped the issue during a Dáil debate yesterday, as the Coalition was accused of trying to bring back charges “through the back door” of “excessive” water usage.

Speaking during the Leaders’ Questions debate, Mr Bruton, who took the place of US-bound Taoiseach Enda Kenny, was questioned over the exact implications of Tuesday’s water commission report.

However, despite direct questions over how people who have refused to pay the charges to date will be treated and calls for clarity on whether fees for “excessive” usage are a way to quietly re-introduce charges, he did not give any firm answers on the issues.

Questioned by Sinn Féin deputy leader Mary Lou McDonald about Housing and Local Government Minister Simon Coveney’s comments yesterday that people who have not paid to date will be “pursued”, Mr Bruton did not explain what the plan will involve.

Asked specifically if it relates to “pursuing through the courts, revenue or through social welfare payments”, Mr Bruton instead said “no one who did their civic duty and paid up” should be unfairly treated”.

During a separate exchange, AAA-PBP TD Richard Boyd Barrett warned Mr Bruton the water commission report’s recommendation that an as yet undefined “vast majority” of people will not pay fees while those using “excessive” amounts of water will face charges is a “fudge to save the blushes of Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil”.

Mr Boyd Barrett said the report found there was no reason for Ireland to have a charging system as the country uses 20% less water per home than Britain where charges are in place. He said this shows ‘the polluter pays’ principle is not based on logic.

However, Mr Bruton said the issue needs to be “deliberated in a mature way” by the 20-person cross-party Oireachtas committee examining the findings, adding pointedly, that Mr Boyd Barrett is a member of this group.

The responses led to an angry reaction from Ms McDonald, who said the public has made it clear there can be “no return of water charges through the front or back door” and that “given your track record, how could anyone trust you”.

Source
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/action-on-water-charge-defaulters-still-unclear-433123.html 
http://fliuch.org/action-on-water-charge-defaulters-still-unclear/

Water charges and property tax may be combined, says FF

Foreword from Buncrana Together

We find that many newspaper articles just report what this or that person says and quite often put across their own political slant.  On the one hand it is handy to know what each interviewee/interviewer is thinking.  However, it is difficult for us just to give them a biased soapbox.

Here we have Fianna Fáil still dithering and wondering what to do about Water Charges, even preempting any Oireachtas committee discussion.   Imagine the Fianna Fáil leader still playing this political game, releasing little soundbites to guage which way the wind is blowing, searching for little loopholes.    Once again can we remind Micheál Martin and Fianna Fáil of their clear and unambiguous commitments to the Irish electorate.

One of the things that has struck us from the Domestic Water Commission report was the repeated reference to 'public lack of trust'.  

The Irish Times

Water charges and property tax may be combined, says FF

Micheál Martin looks to creation of single household charge but not before 2019

Chaired by former Labour Relations chair Kevin Duffy, the commission recommends normal water usage should be paid through general taxation, with a charge for ’wasteful’ usage. Photograph: Ulrich Baumgarten/Getty Images

Fianna Fáil is to consider merging the property tax and water charges in a potential compromise.

The Irish Times has learned party leader Micheál Martin is examining the prospect of amalgamating the two levies into one household charge.

However Mr Martin, who has discussed the issue with key members of his front bench, is stressing the potential move will not be considered until 2019 when the property tax is due for revaluation.

He is understood to be studying the situation in Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom for guidance on how to roll out such a charge.

This would ensure Fianna Fáil abides by its core election policy to end the water charging regime and also comply with European Commission rules.

Previously, party figures have said it would be too difficult to achieve a combined water and property charge while preserving the principle of conservation or “polluter pays, as required under EU rules.

Revenue Commissioners

It was also previously argued by some in Fine Gael that it would be difficult to combine a tax collected by the Revenue Commissioners with a usage charge collected by a utility company.

However, senior Fine Gael figures have said they would also be open to such a move, as long as it preserved the principle of some charges being paid.

Senior sources in the party yesterday insisted a combined charge could be achieved if there is a willingness to do so.

“It could be done if people really wanted to,” said one Fine Gael Minister.

A similar style charge, combining water and property levies, was tabled by former minister for the environment Phil Hogan a number of years ago. It was eventually rejected.

The report by the expert commission examining the future of water charges was published in full on Tuesday.

Chaired by former Labour Relations chair Kevin Duffy, the commission recommends normal water usage should be paid through general taxation, with a charge being levied for “wasteful” usage.

Each home will receive an allowance “that corresponds to the accepted level of usage required for domestic and personal needs”.

Special exemptions

It insists special exemptions for those with medical conditions and others who require “high water usage should be maintained”.

The report will now be sent to an Oireachtas committee for examination and it will have three months to make a proposal to the Dáil for a vote.

Fianna Fáil’s housing spokesman Barry Cowen said a final party position would not be adopted until the deliberations of the committee were complete. “I firmly believe that the Special Oireachtas Committee on Water should now be given space to fully examine the report and to explore all of its recommendations,” he said.

Minister for Housing Simon Coveney yesterday ruled out refunding those who had previously paid water charges and indicated his focus would be on retrieving unpaid charges from those who did not pay their bills.

While Fianna Fáil had proposed to refund those who had paid their charges through a tax credit, party sources now declined to commit to this position.

“We are not sticking to anything, we are just sticking to the report,” said a party source. “We could come up with a range of options during the process of the Oireachtas commission.”

The members of the Oireachtas committee are Fianna Fáil’s Mr Cowen, Willie O’Dea, John Lahart, Mary Butler and Lorraine Clifford-Lee.

Kate O’Connell, Colm Brophy, Alan Farrell, Jim Daly, Martin Heydon and Paudie Coffey will represent Fine Gael.

Sinn Féin’s Eoin Ó Broin and Jonathan O’Brien, Labour’s Jan O’Sullivan, Anti-Austerity Alliance’s Paul Murphy and Independent TD Seamus Healy will also participate.

Source Irish Times, Nov 30, 2016